Transcript·文字实录

冯欣：感谢您收看《解析中国》的特别节目。在过去的11天里，我和同事们在北京报道中国的“两会”。两会指的是全国人民代表大会，简称“人大”，以及中国人民政治协商会议，简称“政协”。来自全国各地的上千位代表聚集在北京，参加这两个被公认为中国每年最重要的政治活动。代表和委员们讨论议案和提案，以及各种社会和法律问题。

Feng Xin: Thanks for joining me for the special episode of Digest China. Over the past 11 days, my colleagues and I were covering China's two annual sessions, or "lianghui", in Beijing. The two sessions included the National People's Congress, or the NPC, and the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, or the CPPCC. Thousands of representatives from all over the country gathered in Beijing for what are considered China's most important annual political events. The officials discuss bills and proposals, as well as various legislative and social issues.

冯欣：如果你想更多地了解两会如何运行，我们制作了一个动画短片，解答一些最常见的问题。你可以点击“往期节目”里的“解析中国‘两会’”来观看。

Feng Xin: If you want to know more about how the two sessions function, we made a short animated video answering some of the most frequently asked questions. You can watch it by clicking on our previous show: What are China's two sessions?

冯欣：我们采访了几十位人大代表和政协委员，精选了八段我们认为最能够代表两会话题的采访片段。

Feng Xin: We have interviewed dozens of NPC deputies and CPPCC members. We invite you to watch eight interview segments we think best represent the topics discussed during the political events.

冯欣：今年全国人大会议的一项主要议程是审议《刑事诉讼法修正案（草案）》，草案对现行法律110个条文做出了修改。现行的刑事诉讼法于1979年制定，1996年修订。十六年过去了，现在做出了哪些修改？

Feng Xin: One of the main items on this year's NPC agenda was a review of the draft amendment to China's Criminal Procedure Law. There are revisions to 110 articles in the current law, which was enacted in 1979 and last revised in 1996. Sixteen years have passed. What have been changed?

宋鱼水：刑诉法的修改最重要的是惩治犯罪和保障人权并重，我觉得这两点是非常重要的。比如说惩治犯罪，惩治犯罪最重要的一个核心在于证据制度。我们有一个非常完整的证据制度才能够保证有罪的犯罪嫌疑人能够得到应有的惩罚。同时无罪的也应该得到应有的保障，罪与非罪之间，还有量刑之间。

Song Yushui: I think the most important change is that the amendment attaches equal importance to punishing crimes and protecting human rights. I think these are two key parts. In terms of punishing crimes, the evidentiary system is fundamental. We need to have a complete evidentiary system to make sure suspects who are indeed guilty receive the punishment they deserve and innocent people are protected at the same time. It plays a key role in conviction and penalty.

宋鱼水：那么在这个过程中，刑事诉讼法最大的一个亮点是鼓励证人积极出庭作证，同时如果是不出庭的，也采取一些相应的制裁措施。在这个基础上，加大了保障尊重人权的力度，也就是说，即使是犯罪嫌疑人，他的权力如何得到程序上的保护，我觉得做了很大的规定。

Song Yushui: One of the highlights of the drafted amendment is that it encourages witnesses to appear in court to testify. If a witness fails to appear in court, the court may compel him or her to do so. In addition, the drafted amendment puts more emphasis on protecting human rights. That is to say, even if someone is a criminal suspect, his or her rights need to be guaranteed procedurally. The drafted amendment includes a lot of specific requirements.

宋鱼水：这次刑事诉讼法还有一点，就是死刑制度，死刑制度实行严格的死刑原则。当然在这个制度上一直有两种观点，有的人希望废除死刑，但是我觉得在我们国家，绝对的废除死刑还是不太现实的。国情很大，也很复杂，人也很多，但是尽量的谨慎，我觉得这个还是值得的。

Song Yushui: One more highlight is on the death penalty. The drafted amendment puts forth strict death sentence principles. Obviously there have always been two sides of views on the death penalty. Some think we should abolish capital punishment. But I think so far in our country absolute abolishment of death sentences is not quite realistic because of the complexity of our country and the huge population. However, we need to be as cautious as possible (when using capital punishment). I think this is necessary.

冯欣：自中央和各地方政府出台房地产限购政策已有一年多，限购令的目的是抑制房地产市场投资过热并降低房价。3月5日，国务院总理在《政府工作报告》中说，2012年，政府将继续严格执行房地产的调控政策并基本建成500万套保障性住房。这些政策到底意味着什么？

Feng Xin: It's been more than a year since the central and local governments in China imposed restrictive purchase policies in various cities. The purpose was to discourage overinvestment in the real estate market and bring down property prices. On March 5, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao said in his Government Work Report that the government will continue to regulate the real estate market and complete 5 million units of low-income housing in 2012. What do all these policies mean?

王健林：中央调控有两句话，一是防止房地产风险，促进实业发展，就是使资金从房地产撤回来，回归实业，这是一个目标。第二个叫做保障民生。保障民生目前只是提了一个口号，建保障房。但是我从了解中央政策来看，保障房到十二五末期，目标也只保障20%的人。但是实际上有住房需求又不能完全买到很好房子的这个人群，不是20%, 应该是百分之六七十，那就意味着还有百分之四十、五十的人群不能通过保障房获得住房圆住房梦，必须通过商品房市场来买房。那么对于中等收入这部分人的保障，如何惠及民生？我觉得应该恢复原来优惠贷款利率。

Wang Jianlin: The central government's policies have two sentences: The first sentence is "preventing real estate risks and boosting industrial development". This means withdrawing investment from real estate and relocating it in industries. That's one goal. The second sentence is "safeguarding people's livelihood", but so far it's only been about building low-income housing. As far as I understand the policies, the goal is to guarantee that 20% of the urban population will be living in low-income houses by the end of 2015. However, the number of people who have actual demand to buy houses but cannot afford to do so is far more than 20%. They probably account for 60% or 70%. This means 40% or 50% of (those) people are not able to own a house through the low-income housing system. They have to buy commodity housing. So how can the middle-income people's livelihood be guaranteed? I think we should revert to the old prime rate.

王健林：我觉得今年整体，简单一句话形容，今年房价全国是稳中有降。首先从前两个月看，全国70个大中城市全部环比止涨，这70个城市占全国房地产市场的百分之八十以上。全国虽然有2000多个县城，600多个城市，但是这70个城市基本就是中国房地产的绝大部分。所以这70个城市控制好，基本上全国房地产市场就稳定了。这70个城市前两个月已经环比止涨，那么再加上今年房地产调控不动摇，再加上货币只增长14%，还是适度从紧这么一个态势，再加上预期改变——不管是开发商还是购房者对房价涨的预期改变，这三层作用力综合起来，我认为全年房价肯定是稳中有降的。

Wang Jianlin: My prediction for this year can be summarized in one sentence: Housing prices around China will be stable with slight decline. First, if we look at the first two months, the linked relative ratio of housing prices in 70 major Chinese cities all stopped rising. These 70 cities account for more than 80% of China's real estate market. Although China has more than 2,000 counties and 600 cities, these 70 cities make up most of China's real estate market. So if the housing prices in these 70 cities are controlled well, China's real estate market is basically stable. The 70 cities' linked relative ratio has already stopped rising. The central government's restrictive policies remain firm. The currency value only goes up 14%, still keeping appropriately tight. Plus people's expectations are changing – both real estate developers' and consumers' expectations are changing – when these three forces unite, I think housing prices will definitely be stable with slight decline this year.

冯欣：根据国家统计局的数据，2011年中国大约有1.5亿离家外出务工的农民，很多人不得不把自己的妻子留在乡下，这些留守妇女的生活要面临哪些困难和挑战？

Feng Xin: According to China's National Bureau of Statistics, about 150 million migrant workers left home to work in other provinces in 2011. Many had to leave their wives behind in the countryside. What challenges and difficulties do these women face in life?

甄砚：就我们的了解，大概有4000多万这样的妇女在农村，守着土地，守着家庭，守着孩子和老人。比如说她们生产农忙的时候，觉得没有人帮忙，会比较艰辛。然后她们在分担家务的时候，没有人帮着她们来承担，所以她们会比较劳累。她们在教育孩子的问题上，常常是一个人来面对，所以比较焦虑。在对待老人的赡养中，她们的负担也是比较重的。

Zhen Yan: As far as we know, there are about 40 million 'left-behind' women in the countryside, taking care of the land, the family, the children and the elderly people. They often face hardships during busy seasons when no one is there to help. They can often get very tired when they have to take care of all the house work without any help. When educating children, they are also on their own and can get very anxious. In terms of supporting elderly parents, their burden is heavy, too.

甄砚：当然还有一个很重要的就是你提到的问题，关于安全问题。我们了解到农村妇女，比如说家里失盗，牛被偷了，一些重要的物件被偷了。还有一个就是受到性骚扰，这样的问题也有。另外特别值得我们重视的一个问题，就是有一些留守的女童遭到了一些性侵犯，我觉得这是我们坚决要进行遏制的。

Zhen Yan: Of course, there's the issue you just mentioned, which is about their safety. We have learned that these women are often victims of burglary. For example, their cows are stolen, and important items get stolen. Another thing is sexual harassment. There are such issues. We also have to pay attention to some left-behind girls who were sexually molested. I think we need to curb such cases with determination.

冯欣：云南省连续三年遭受严重干旱，据云南省民政厅统计，截止到今年2月，超过230万人饮水困难，超过630万人生活受到影响，以省会昆明市为例，现在的情况有多糟？

Feng Xin: Yunnan province in southwest China has been experiencing a severe drought for three consecutive years. According to Yunnan's Bureau of Civil Affairs, as of February 2012 more than 2.3 million people are having difficulty accessing drinking water, and more than 6.3 million people have been affected. Take its capital city Kunming as an example. How bad is the situation right now?

张祖林：三年就降了两年的雨，到现在为止，我们全市库塘蓄水，从去年秋季以来到现在，就是靠一半不到的水量维持着我们城乡居民的生产和生活，所以这个水是用一滴少一滴。到现在为止，我们主要城乡饮用水源的水利设施，它的蓄水量，如果我们精打细算，大家节约水资源的话，勉强能够使用到5月中下旬，也就是雨季到来的时候。如果我们浪费水，不节约用水，估计到5月中下旬都坚持不到，很可能就会出现严重的水荒。

Zhang Zulin: (Yunnan) only had two years worth of rain in three years. The water storage in our city's reservoirs has been at less than half (the total capacity) since last fall. Kunming's city and rural residents have been relying on a limited amount of water for living and production. So when a drop of water is used, there is one less. By far, the water storage in our reservoirs - if we tighten our belt - may sustain us until the middle of May when the rain season comes, but it could be difficult. If we waste water, we can barely make it until mid May. There will be serious water famine.

冯欣：在2011年12月举行的中央经济工作会议上，中央政府立志要改善中国中小企业的生存环境，而这个会议通常为下一年中国的经济发展定下基调。很多人大代表和政协委员在今年的两会中再次提出这个问题，中国的中小企业到底面临怎样的困难？政府怎样做才能改善它们的生存环境？

Feng Xin: At its annual Central Economic Work Conference in December 2011, the Chinese government vowed to improve the business environment for China's small-to-medium sized entrepreneurs. The conference usually sets the tone for China's economic development next year. Many NPC deputies and CPPCC members brought up this issue again during this year's two sessions. What exactly are the difficulties China's small-to-medium sized companies have to face? What can the government do to make their business environment better?

朱成钢：中小企业因为在我们国家经济发展当中起了非常重要的作用，它对GDP的贡献是50%，但是它最大的贡献是在就业，它有90%多的就业贡献率。但是最近几年，中小企业的发展也确实碰到了很多困难，中小企业现在很大的问题，比如说贷款难的问题，主要我觉得还是不同所有制的地位能不能平等的问题。那么因为现在银行贷款给中小企业，同贷款给国有企业，它是两个不同的风险。贷款给国有企业，它仅仅是业务风险，但是贷款给中小企业和民营企业，除了业务风险还有道德风险。所以在这样的情况下，银行当然对于中小企业贷款会有很大的顾虑。

Zhu Chenggang: Small-to-medium enterprises (SMEs) have played a very important role in our economic development. They contribute 50% of the GDP. But their biggest contribution is in creating jobs, making up 90% of the employment. But in recent years, SMEs have encountered many difficulties in their development. One major difficulty lies in getting bank loans. I think it's mainly due to the inequality embedded in different natures of ownership. Banks face two different risks when lending money to State-owned enterprises and SMEs. Banks only face business risks when lending money to the former. However, they have to face both business risks as well as moral hazard when lending money to the latter. Under such circumstances, it's natural for banks to be reluctant to lend money to SMEs.

朱成钢：第二，中小企业为什么现在生存比较困难？现在各地的政府直接参与微观经济比较多，所以政府现在是微观经济领域当中的主体。那么作为主体，它天然就有一种追求先进、追求扩大的、扩张的内在冲动，所以如果政府作为第一经济体，它肯定去追求大企业。

Zhu Chenggang: Secondly, it's very common for local governments to directly participate in local economies, so governments are the main players. As a result, they have a natural incentive to expand their businesses. If they are the lead players in economic activities, they must pursue big enterprises.

朱成钢：第三是我们现在追求的经济目标也有一些需要修正的地方，所谓经济目标，各地政府实际上是追求GDP和税收。如果我们把追求就业作为政府的第一目标，中小企业的就业贡献是最大的，但它的税收贡献很少，所以政府的选择——在这样的经济目标下——肯定选择大企业。所以这些深层次的问题如果不解决，中小企业的生存困境就很难得到根本的改善。

Zhu Chenggang: Thirdly, we need to amend some of the economic objectives we pursue. In terms of economic objectives, local governments, in fact, want GDP and revenue. However, if we make creating employment opportunities the government's number one goal, SMEs make the largest contribution, even though they don't contribute much to revenue. Given such economic objectives, it's natural that governments prefer big enterprises. If these deeply rooted problems are not solved, it's hard to improve SMEs' business environment.

冯欣：第十一届全国人大2011年10月宣布，将反家庭暴力的法律列入2011年立法工作计划预备项目，现在正在进行立项论证。2009年香港特别行政区通过了《家庭与同居关系暴力条例》。当时香港的立法者都经历过哪些争论？有哪些立法经验可以供大陆分享？

Feng Xin: The 11th National People's Congress announced in October 2011 that it would consider introducing legislation on domestic violence; lawmakers are currently researching and investigating that possibility. In 2009, the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region passed its Domestic and Cohabitation Relationships Violence Ordinance. What were some of the controversies Hong Kong lawmakers debated? What legislative experiences can the Chinese mainland share?

陈婉娴：在这个过程当中，有两个很大的争执，就是婚姻的定义在哪里。如果婚姻可以以异性为主的，还是同性也行的吗？这个是一个很大的争议。另外一个争议就是有关保障的范围，父母、老人家也是否包在里面吗？儿童也应该包在里面吧。这也是很大的争议。我觉得在传统的中国人里面，一般是家丑不往外传，你要冲破这个传统的概念，是很重要的一步。我认为任何家里总有事情发生，这个问题就是如何解决家里不能处理的问题。起码我立个法，去影响任何准备施暴的人士一个警戒，让他们不要乱来。

Chan Yuen-han: During the process, there were two main arguments. What's the definition of marriage? Does it have to be between two people of the opposite sex? Or can it be between people with the same sex? This was a big argument. Another was about the scope of the law. Are parents and the elderly included in the law? Or maybe children should be included, as well. This was also a main argument. I think in traditional Chinese culture, people don't wash their dirty laundry in public. It's important to break up the traditional concept. I believe any family can have issues. The key question is how to solve problems that cannot be solved behind closed doors. If we have legislation it can at least warn those who are about to commit violence, telling them to step back.

冯欣：根据媒体报道，中国几个省最近宣布要推行一项措施，让艾滋病检测者提供他们的真实姓名，这项提议立即引起了争议。艾滋病实名检测究竟有何利弊？

Feng Xin: According to media reports, several Chinese provinces recently announced plans to implement a policy asking people who take an HIV test to provide their names. Such proposals invited immediate debate. What are the pros and cons of real-name HIV testing?

邵一鸣：我们知道艾滋病是一个饱受歧视的疾病，在我们的社会仍存在很多对艾滋病的歧视。你可以想象，艾滋病实名检测会引起很多担忧，但事实上，任何事都有两面性，对于匿名检测，它可以更好地保障感染者不被识别和歧视。但是医疗机构不能掌握他们的情况，政府也就不知道真实的疫情。在我们现行的艾滋病防治工作中，我们总是将预防和治疗结合在一起，如果不知道病人的身份，我们就很难为他们提供治疗和咨询，由于治疗是一件终生的事，你得知道这些人，他们在哪里，才能给他们送去药物，所以这是一把双刃剑。

Shao Yiming: You know AIDS is a stigmatized disease. So in society there is still a lot of discrimination against AIDS. You can imagine real-name testing will cause a lot of concerns. Actually, any (issue) has two sides. For anonymous testing, it provides a better guarantee for the infected people to not be identified (and) not be discriminated against. But the health agencies do not know them. And the governments do not know the real epidemic figure. And in the current AIDS control and prevention, you always combine prevention with treatment and care. So without knowing the people's identity, it is difficult to provide the care, counseling and treatment for them. Because the treatment is life-long, you have to know the people–where they are, send them drugs regularly. So it's a double-edged sword.

邵一鸣：但是我们现在推行的政策，初步检测仍然是匿名的，你不需要提供姓名来做HIV病毒检测。实名检测只是在第二个阶段——确诊阶段，给你提供确诊报告，并将你与治疗机构牵线的阶段，我们鼓励病人提供真实姓名。

Shao Yiming: But the policy currently implemented in China is that screening tests are still anonymous, so you don't need to tell your name to do an HIV test. It's only at the second stage to confirm the diagnosis, providing you with a diagnosis document and then linking you with care and treatment. At that stage we encourage patients to be identified.

冯欣：3月11日，最高人民法院院长王胜俊向代表和委员做了工作报告，他在报告中说2011年各地法院共审结了278件食品犯罪案件，判处罪犯320人。在上期《解析中国》的民意调查中，我们的观众将食品安全列为他们最关注的问题。那么政府怎样做才能让我们的食品更安全呢？

Feng Xin: On March 11, the president of the Supreme People's Court, Wang Shengjun, gave his annual work report to NPC deputies and CPPCC members. He said courts around China brought 278 food-safety cases to trial and convicted 320 suspects in 2011. In a Digest China poll we posted along our last show, our viewers ranked food safety as the most concerning issue. What can the government do to make our food safer?

雷晓凌：我们现在从检测能力和力度来说，跟国外比并不差，因为我们现在很多需要检测项目，基本上也都检测了。另外我们抽测的频率，也就是样品量，也不算少，我们监管人员比别人还多，所以我觉得食品安全出现的问题，可能还是在于惩罚力度需要提高，再就是需要建立一个社会的诚信信用体系。现在其实我们食品还是存在多层管理，我们说一个农产品，农业部门来检测，我们还有一些水产品，还有一些渔业部门，渔业体系统也有一个检测的部门，可能这里也存在一个责任不是很明确的问题。所以我们也是在呼吁是不是可以整合一些精华部门，包括检测部门，可能会更有效提高食品的监管力度。

Lei Xiaoling: In terms of our testing ability and degree of enforcement, we are not really behind other countries. Pretty much all the required items are being tested. Also, the frequency of our sampling test–the size of the sample isn't small. We have more supervision personnel than other countries have. Therefore, I think food safety problems probably have a lot to do with the severity of punishment. It needs to be made harsher. We also need to establish a social credit system. In fact, the administration of food is many-headed. For example, agricultural products are supervised by agricultural departments. Aquatic products are supervised by fishery departments. There might be problems with unclear responsibilities. So we are trying to convince the government to integrate some key departments, including testing institutions. Then we can improve the efficiency in the supervision of our food safety.

冯欣：这就是这一期的特别节目，感谢收看。

Feng Xin: That's your special episode of Digest China. Thanks for watching.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中国预算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中国的预算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大学生就业难，难在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 为什么我们经常听到毕业生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工难，难在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人单位的“招工难”？又是什么让求职者难以找到这些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中国有没有足够的养老钱？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我们到底能领多少钱？到什么年龄应该计划养老问题？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中国人是否应该晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力资源和社会保障部提出，未来会逐步将退休年龄推迟五年。这样做有什么深层的社会原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外国人：中国成为机会之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外国人日益增多，是否意味着中国成为机会的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中国反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探讨“家庭暴力”这个概念的本身和取证的困难。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中国反家庭暴力立法：难点

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中国》探讨中国反家庭暴力立法进程中长期存在的阻力和分歧。