文字实录 · Transcript

自5月15日起，北京警方将展开为期100天的专项行动集中清理在华非法居留、就业、以及入境的外国人, 这一消息来自于北京市公安局。据媒体报道，一些地区如成都、吉林延边都展开了类似的行动。这些行动究竟是个别现象，还是有着深层的社会、文化和法律背景？让我们先听听大家怎么说吧。

Starting on May 15, the Beijing police will serve in a 100-day campaign to crackdown on foreigners who live, work and travel in China illegally. That's according to the Beijing Public Security Bureau. Media report that officials in Chengdu, the capital of Sichuan province, and Yanbian in Jilin province, are rolling out similar actions. Are these actions isolated moves or rooted in a deeper social, cultural and legislative context? Let's hear what people say first.

受访者：我听说他们检查得更细致了，比如（检查）街上外国人的护照、签证。我目前才在北京居住了两星期, 我父母已经告诉我，到公安局办理（手续）。

Respondent: I just heard that they check better passport and visa (of) foreign people on the streets. I've been living in Beijing (for) two weeks, and my mother and father already told me to go to the police (to complete all my paperwork).

记者：这次行动对你的生活有什么影响？

Reporter: Has the action affected your life in any way?

受访者：没什么影响。因为我是一个学生，我大部分时间都在学校里，而且我不怎么离开学校。

Respondent: I don't think, really. Because I'm a student, I spend all my time at my school, and I don't go a lot of times out of the school.

受访者：没有，我还没有发现什么变化。不过，我确实随身携带我的护照。我以前不这样做，但是现在开始这么做了。

Respondent: No, I haven't seen anything yet. Actually, I do carry my passport. I didn't use to do that, but now I actually do.

受访者：我觉得没什么影响。我总是随身带着我的证件。

Respondent: It doesn't influence (me) in any way. I think I always bring my documents with me.

受访者：首先，我要去警察局注册登记我的详细住址。如果我离开现在的住所，我必须告知警察我要搬到哪里去。

Respondent: First, I have to register with the police to tell exactly where I'm living. And if I leave the place I'm living at, I have to tell the police and notify them where I'm going to be staying.

记者：您对这次行动有什么看法？

Reporter: What do you think about their action?

受访者：我不太明白为什么这一次要比以往严厉。

Respondent: I don't really understand why (they're doing it) now. It's more severe than before.

受访者：我觉得情况不是很好。这是我在中国的第二年，之前从来没有人查过我的证件，有时候随身携带证件很麻烦，因为你会忘记。

Respondent: I think it's a very difficult condition. I'm in my second year in China, but they never asked me about my papers, and sometimes it's so difficult to bring your papers with you, because you'll forget it.

受访者：我觉得很正常，因为在我的国家法国，警察也经常检查移民的证件，在中国不是经常见到警察。通常在法国，到处都是警察，但这里不是这样。

Respondent: I think it's pretty normal, because in my country in France, police also check immigrants' papers. I don't see police much in China. Usually in France, we have a lot of police everywhere, but in here, I don't see so much.

受访者：我觉得只要不太过分就可以，只要不是随时随地地检查就没有问题。

Respondent: I think it's OK if it's not too much, all the time on the corner of the street. I think (it's OK).

受访者：我觉得这样做是正确的，我完全赞同这个行动。

Respondent: I think it's the right thing to do. I totally agree with it.

受访者：我觉得有点过了，不能因为一个人的所作所为就指责所有外国人。为了一个人的行为就追查所有外国人，这有点不公平。

Respondent: I think it's a bit excessive, maybe, to blame all the foreigners for the action of one person. Tracking down all the foreigners for the action of one person just seems not fair.

记者：你认为这次行动背后的原因是什么？

Reporter: What do you think to be the reason behind it?

受访者：我完全不知道。倒是有各种各样的传闻，但是根据我所读到的，这次行动只是政府想要检查（外国人的）证件，他们想要彻底打击非法移民。

Respondent: I have no idea. There are different rumors on it, but as far as I read, it's just (that) the officials want to check the documents and really want to bring down illegal immigration.

受访者：我想可能和最近一个英国人在街上企图强奸中国女孩的事件有关，现在他们只是想更细地检查在华外国人。

Respondent: I guess it (is related to) this recent event of this British guy trying to rape a girl on the street, and now they just want to check better about foreigners coming in China.

记者：您对这个行动怎么看呢？

Reporter: What do you think about the action?

受访者：我觉得应该支持，我挺支持的。

Respondent: I support the action.

受访者：我觉得外国人在中国算是很好的，但是可能有一些人签证过期。这边如果对他没有限制的话，可能他们会做出一些违反中国法律的事，他们也不懂，所以我觉得会危害我们。

Respondent: I think it's good that foreigners live in China, but some people's visas might have expired. If there is no regulation, they might do something against China's laws, they might not even be aware of, but they would harm us.

受访者：我觉得外国人在中国也就是普通的人群。我们就只能把他当作一个进入到中国的人而已。

Respondent: I think foreigners in China are just ordinary people. We should treat them just as regular people as we are.

受访者：我觉得每一个国家都会采取一些对于在本国滞留的外国人一些合法的行(动)。

Respondent: I think every country is legitimized to have certain regulations on its foreign population.

记者：那你认为北京警方这次行动背后的原因是什么？

Reporter: What do you think to be the reason behind the action?

受访者：应该是出于目前社会的压力吧。现在社会出现的事也挺多的。现在有些“三非”的人在这没有固定的收入，也没有固定工作，有些在这来捣乱社会治安，所以我挺支持这事的。

Respondent: I think it comes from our social anxiety. There are so many things happening in the society. Some illegal immigrants don't have stable income and jobs. Some ended up disturbing our social order, so I support the action.

受访者：前一段时间（发生在）宣武区强奸中国女子的事，其实很多时候你别把它看成是外国人（做的事）， 它其实就是一个很普通的案件。很多中国人感觉很愤慨，其实我觉得愤怒的并不是外国人对我们中国人如何，很多时候愤怒的是对政府的一种失望，觉得中国人可能没有人家外国人有权利。

Respondent: Talking about the rape of a Chinese woman in Xuanwumen area, let's not see it as something done by a foreigner. It's actually an ordinary case. Many Chinese feel outraged, but I don't think they were furious with what foreigners did to Chinese but were disappointed in the government. They feel Chinese citizens don't enjoy as much privilege as foreigners.

受访者：我觉得那个是事情的一个诱因吧。现在这个事情发生了，可能大家对于在中国的很多外国人非法居留或者从事一些非法活动这个问题引起了更深的关注。

Respondent: I think that incident is a trigger. It makes people more aware of issues of some foreigners staying in China illegally or violating Chinese laws.

受访者：我觉得这还和国际的大环境有关系，比如说有些人可能是间谍。

Respondent: I think it's linked to the international environment. For example, some people might be spies.

记者：那您平常对在北京生活的外国人印象怎么样？

Reporter: What is your impression of foreigners living in Beijing?

受访者：我认为总体我接触的外国人都还（可以）。我身边的还好一些吧。

Respondent: In general, I think the foreigners I know are OK. I think the foreigners I know are OK.

受访者：其实我接触到大多的外国人还是挺友好的。

Respondent: Most of the foreigners I meet are actually quite friendly.

受访者：层次也是参差不齐。大部分都是好的，但是有一些可能在国外就是比较混的。

Respondent: They vary. Most of them are good, but some might have been hooligans even before they came to China.

通过街访，我们发现很多人在被问起他们猜想警方行动的原因时都提到了一个事件，让我们再回顾一下这个事件。

From the street interviews, we found many people mentioned one incident when asked what they think to be the reason behind police's crackdown. A recap of the event might give you more ideas.

根据中国日报报道，5月8日晚，一名英籍游客涉嫌在北京宣武门地区当街猥亵一名中国女子。这个男子的行为被拍摄下来并放到了网上，视频显示这名女子放声大哭说她并不认识这个外国男人。几个中国男子在听到呼救后前来援救，他们打了这个英国人，而他随即躺在了马路中央。上百万人看了这个视频，很多人在网上表达了他们的愤慨。

According to China Daily reports, a British tourist was suspected of sexually assaulting a Chinese woman on Xuanwumen Dajie in Beijing at about 11 pm on May 8. The man's actions were caught on video and then posted online. The video shows the woman crying out in distress and saying she doesn't know the foreign man. A few Chinese men came to the woman's aid after they heard her calls. They beat the British tourist, who was then lying in the middle of the road. Millions of people watched the video, and tens of thousands have expressed their outrage online.

一周后，北京警方展开了为期100天的专项行动，在外国人聚居的地点检查一些人的护照和居留证件。两个事件相隔如此之短，很难让人不把它们联系起来。

A week later, the Beijing police issued the 100-day campaign to check passports and accommodation registration in areas where foreigners gather in Beijing. The interval between the two events was so short that many couldn't help think one caused the other.

但是据中国日报报道，警察否认了这种说法，说这次清理行动仅仅是为了打击外国人非法工作、居留以及入境等问题。而且警察说，此事件中的英籍男子确有合法签证，但是，为什么要在现在清理呢？非法移民问题在中国究竟有多严重？让我们来看一些数据。

But China Daily reported that the police denied that idea and said the crackdown only aims at tackling the illegal employment of foreigners, overstaying and illegal entry. After all, the police said the suspected British man involved in the incident does have a valid visa. But why start the crackdown now? How serious is the problem of illegal immigrants in China? Let's look at some numbers.

据公安部统计，2011年，外国人入境中国共计5400多万人次。他们来到中国的目的各不相同，有旅游、会议商务、就业、学习以及探亲访友。据北京警方的数据，平均每天有20万外国人居住停留在北京。

According to the Ministry of Public Security, foreign visitors made about 54 million trips to the Chinese mainland in 2011. They came to China for various purposes like tourism, business and conference, employment, study and reuniting with friends and families. Beijing alone hosts an average of 200,000 foreigners per day. That's according to the city police.

2011年，外国人来华人数居前十位的国家是：韩国、日本、俄罗斯、美国、马来西亚、新加坡、越南、蒙古、菲律宾，以及加拿大。中国最近一次的人口普查显示，中国接收外国人最多的前十位地区是：广东、上海、北京、江苏、福建、云南、浙江、山东、辽宁以及广西壮族自治区。

The 10 countries that sent the most visitors to China in 2011 were: the Republic of Korea, Japan, Russia, the United States, Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam, Mongolia, the Philippines and Canada. China's latest census shows the top 10 Chinese regions that receive most foreign residents are: Guangdong province, Shanghai municipality, Beijing municipality, Jiangsu province, Fujian province, Yunnan province, Zhejiang province, Shandong province, Liaoning province and Guangxi Zhuang autonomous region.

1980年外国人入境74万人次，这个数字到2011年增长了近36倍达到2700多万人次。1980年，在华居住超过六个月的外国人有近2万人, 到2011年增长到60多万, 增长了大约30倍。这些常住居民主要为三资企业工作人员、留学生、教师、外企驻华机构代表及其亲属。截至2011年底，约有4700个外国人获得中国永久居住权。

About 740,000 foreigners entered China in 1980; the number grew 36 times that – to over 27 million – in 2011. In 1980, there were 20,000 foreigners that lived in China for more than six months. That number went up to 600,000 in 2011, representing a 30-time increase. These long-term residents were mainly employees of foreign-funded enterprises, students, teachers, and representatives of foreign companies as well as their relatives. As of the end of 2011, about 4,700 foreign residents held China's permanent residence.

1995年，中国警方查处了1万人次“三非”外国人，即非法居留、就业及入境的外国人，这个数字到2011年时翻了1倍。公安部统计，大部分签证过期后非法居留的外国人由于不了解中国法律而违法，而非法入境者大部分来自邻国，非法就业的主要集中在教学、演出和家政等领域。

Chinese police dealt with 10,000 foreigners living, working and travelling illegally in 1995. That number doubled in 2011.The ministry reported most illegal immigrants who outstayed their visas in China were not aware of China's law. Those who entered illegally mainly came from neighboring countries. And those who took jobs illegally were mainly working as teachers, performers or housekeepers.

当这些数据看似显示了中国逐渐成为一个热门的国际移民目的地，但是联合国人口司的数据则显示了一个更大的格局。

While these numbers seem to show China is getting more and more popular as a destination for international migration, the United Nations Population Division presents a bigger picture.

截至2009年，国际移民仍然集中在少数欧洲国家、北美和澳大利亚，移民占据了这些国家总人口的7％到20％。相比之下，中国只有不到0.1％的国际移民。

As of 2009, international migrants were still concentrated in a limited number of countries in Europe, North America and Australia. Migrants in these countries took up 7 to 20 percent of their total population, whereas China's migrants account for less than 0.1 percent.

一方面，在华的外国人数迅速增长，另一方面，中国现行的出入境管理法是1985年通过的目前已经有些落后。正因为如此，国务院向全国人大递交了新出入境法的草案，人大于2011年12月进行了第一次审议，并于今年4月进行了第二次审议。

While the number of China's foreign visitors and residents is growing significantly, China's current law on exit and entry, which was passed in 1985, seems quite outdated. Because of this, the State Council submitted a draft law to the National People's Congress for its first hearing in December 2011. The NPC just had its second hearing this April.

立法者在草案中加入了一些条款，例如外国人进入中国需要提供他们的生物特征识别数据；如果在中国停留超过180天需要取得居留证件；这份草案特别增加了关于“三非”的内容：规范在中国非法居住、就业以及入境的外国人。

Lawmakers added a number of items in the draft. For example, foreigners entering China are required to provide their biometric data. They need to get a residence permit if staying in China for longer than 180 days. The draft law made specific regulations on the "three illegals", referring to those who live, work and travel in China illegally.

立法者还加入了绿卡制度或者说，永久居住权, 并且明确了外国人获得中国永久居住权的条件。我们从社会、历史以及法律的角度了解了在华的外国人，那么这些数字又意味着什么呢？外国人是否愿意冒着非法居留的危险来中国就业或是寻找商机呢？如果是，这是否标志中国正崛起成为机会的土壤？我们在演播室电话采访了刘国福，他是一名研究移民法的学者，曾经参与了人大的立法过程。

Lawmakers also added "green cards", or provisions for permanent residence, to the statue by specifying the criteria one has to meet. We've looked at foreign visitors in China from social, historical and legal perspectives. But what do all these numbers mean? Are foreigners willing to risk illegal residence in China to pursue job and business opportunities? And, if so, is that a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? We called Liu Guofu from our studio. He is a scholar on immigration law and took part in the NPC's legislation process as a consultant.

冯欣：刘老师，我听到一种说法，三非外国人日益增多也反映了中国逐渐崛起成为机会的土壤，那您对这个观点怎么看？

Feng Xin: Mr Liu, I heard a view that the growing number of incidents involving illegal immigrants can partly be seen as a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity.What's your opinion?

刘国福：它这个说对了一半。外国人来中国肯定是因为中国的机会多他（们）愿意来。这是一方面，所以我觉得这一点说得是对的。基数大了，产生问题的可能性也大，“三非”问题就多起来了。另外一方面我觉得是更重要的，就是我们对外国人的管理没跟上，这个逻辑是什么？并不是说外国人来就一定会出现“三非”。

I think it's only half correct. Foreigners definitely come to China because there are a lot of opportunities here. That's one side of the story. As the base number of immigrants increases, the chances of problems grow, too. So does the problem of illegal immigrants. But what's more important, as far as I see it, is that our administration of foreigners is inadequate. What I mean is that the increase of foreigners doesn't necessarily result in "three illegals".

冯欣：怎么讲，没跟上？

Feng Xin: What do you mean by "inadequate"?

刘国福：为什么有很多非法入境？比如说边检的问题。还有他为什么能够敢于非法滞留呢？他不知道他签证到期是什么时候吗？他既然知道还敢于违法，说明了什么？说明我们管理有问题，反过来就是说处罚可能是不到位的或者说查处是不全面的，他有侥幸的心理。

Liu Guofu: Let's say illegal entry. Why are there so many cases? It might be due to our border inspection. Also, why do some dare to stay in China illegally? Don't they know when their visas will expire? If they know and still dare to challenge the law, what does this imply? It implies there are problems with our administration. In other words, the punishment might not be severe enough or the inspection is incomplete. And therefore, some think they can get away.

冯欣：那您认为我们国家对外国人来华的政策近十年来有什么变化？

Feng Xin: In your opinion, how has China's policy on foreigners changed over the last 10 years?

刘国福：总体上来讲应该在不断地放松。08年有一个引进海外高层次人才的千人计，是中组部牵头的，给高层的外国人很多特殊的待遇、出境的便利、永久居留的便利、包括在华生活的便利、甚至入籍。

Liu Guofu: Generally speaking, the government has been continuously relaxing its policies. In 2008, there was a visa program for attracting foreigners with special talents. It was led by the Organization Department of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China. It offers a lot of special treatment to foreigners with talent, like the convenience of leaving the country, permanently staying in the country and even acquiring Chinese citizenship.

04年还有一个《外国人在华永久居留管理办法》，允许他们申请永久居留, 刚才举了几个法规的例子。另外一个就是（对）“三非”的打击，像广东、浙江都做过，北京好像也不是第一次。

In 2004, officials passed the Measures for the Administration of Examination and Approval of Foreigners' Permanent Residence in China. Then there are also crackdowns on the "three illegals". Guangdong and Zhejiang province both did that before. So did Beijing.

冯欣：那您认为我们国家对外国人来华的政策未来会向什么方向发展？

Feng Xin: In your opinion, where will China's policies on foreigners head to in the future?

刘国福：移民政策的一个主要目的就是欢迎能为本国做出贡献的人。你能为我们国家做出贡献，我就欢迎你来，你做不了贡献，甚至还是害群之马，就反对你来。简单来讲就是这个意思，因为人流动可以流向中国大陆，也可以流向日本、台湾地区。

Liu Guofu: The main purpose of immigration law is to welcome those who can make contributions to a host country. If you can make contributions to our country, we will welcome you. If you can't, and even do us harm, we will stop you from coming. That's it. People can flow to the Chinese mainland as well as to Japan and Taiwan.

还有和国际上相竞争，它是不断发展和变化的。它是有弹性的、有竞争性的一种法律资格，不能简单地要门槛高或者门槛低。能不能设计出或者制定出更精巧、更完善的法律制度去吸引我们需要的、能为本国做出经济发展贡献的外国人，而且也能够制定出精巧的、很严密的法律制度去堵住那些我们不欢迎的人进来，这是出境入境管理法的宗旨。

Also, countries compete with each other on receiving immigrants. It's a changing and evolving issue. It's flexible and competitive. We can't simply make it easier or harder for people to come. Can we create an elaborate system of laws to attract those we need, those who can make contributions to our economic development as well as to stop those who are not welcome from coming? That should be the principle of immigration law.

冯欣：那从打击“三非”外国人这件事我们看到更深层次的一个问题，那就是怎样对待来华的外国人，那么对这个问题您有什么看法？

Feng Xin: Well, from the police's action on the "three illegals", we see a deeper question, which is how China should treat its foreign population. What do you think?

刘国福：人员的跨国流动是有一定规律的。越发达的国家，国际人口的流动越频繁，占本国的比例越高。发达地区都（达到）10％至15％，一些北欧（地区）达到20％，北京现在1％还不到，远远落后于发达国家，所以它们是有些规律的。

Liu Guofu: The international flow of population has its own rules. The more developed a country is, the more frequently its population flows and the higher percentage of its population foreigners take up. In developed regions, the percentage usually reaches 10% to 15%. Some regions in northern Europe even reach 20%. But Beijing hasn't even reached 1%, which is far from developed countries. So, there are certain rules.

这个法的目的就是调整符合人员国际流动的规律，比如说外国人想到中国来，你就不能硬堵，不能违反人口流动的规律。该欢迎的还是给他更多的渠道，给他更多的方式让他进来，不该进来的那一定要严格打击。

The law is to help a country adjust its policies to best follow the rules. If people want to come to China, we can't simply reject them. We can't go against the pattern of international migration. For those who should be welcomed, we should offer them more opportunities, but for those who shouldn't, we must strictly control their arrival.

衡量一个国家的现代化、国际化有很多个指标。国际移民应该是其中的一个指标，因为国际流动就是人的流动, 人的流动会让整个社会活起来。它注入了新的资本、新的技术、新的思想，会激活原有的技术、资本和思想，让它们进行碰撞，产生新的东西。如果一个地区永远是本土的人，那这个地区一定是保守和落后的。

To measure the degree of a country's modernization and globalization, there are many indicators. International migration is one of them. International migration is the flow of people. The flow of people will energize a society. It injects new capital, technology and ideas into a society. It stimulates old technology, capital and ideas. When they collide, there will be new things created. If a region is only inhabited by its indigenous residents, it must be conservative and underdeveloped.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中国预算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中国的预算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大学生就业难，难在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 为什么我们经常听到毕业生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工难，难在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人单位的“招工难”？又是什么让求职者难以找到这些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中国有没有足够的养老钱？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我们到底能领多少钱？到什么年龄应该计划养老问题？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中国人是否应该晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力资源和社会保障部提出，未来会逐步将退休年龄推迟五年。这样做有什么深层的社会原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外国人：中国成为机会之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外国人日益增多，是否意味着中国成为机会的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中国反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探讨“家庭暴力”这个概念的本身和取证的困难。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中国反家庭暴力立法：难点

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中国》探讨中国反家庭暴力立法进程中长期存在的阻力和分歧。