Transcript·文字实录

冯欣：“民以食为天”——这句中国的古话说明食物是一个人生活中最重要的东西。我们《解析中国》近两期的民意调查似乎也验证了老祖宗的智慧，我们的观众连续两次将食品安全列为生活中最关注的问题，超过对房价、医疗卫生、教育等问题的关注。是什么让大家如此关注食品安全？我们的食品到底有多安全？

Feng Xin: "Min yi shi wei tian"- This ancient Chinese idiom describes food as the most important thing in a person's life. Two of our recent polls on Digest China's website seemed to have proven this wisdom. Our viewers twice ranked China's food safety as the most concerning issue in life – ahead of other things like housing prices, healthcare and education. What concerns people so much about food safety? How safe is our food?

冯欣：在我们探讨这些问题之前，我想先邀请您加入我的小小购物之旅，就像您平常去的一样。

Feng Xin: Well, before we get into these questions and meet our guests, I'd first like to take you for a short shopping trip just like the ones you often have.

冯欣：我倒了一杯刚买的牛奶，我怎样知道这杯牛奶是安全的呢？这里有几种假想的情况可以导致这杯牛奶不安全：第一种情况，这牛奶可能已经过期了，即使商标说没有；第二，这牛奶可能是假冒伪劣产品，比如，它是由淀粉做的，而不是鲜奶，或者厂家添加了食用色素让它看起来更白；第三种情况——可能也是最糟的，牛奶是有毒的，厂家也许添加了三聚氰胺让牛奶看上去含更多蛋白质。我怎样知道我端的这杯牛奶不包含以上任意一种情况呢？我怎样知道我的食物是安全的呢？

Feng Xin: I poured a glass of milk I just bought from the supermarket. How do I know if the milk is safe to drink? Hypothetically, there could be several situations that would make this glass of milk unpleasant, or even unsafe. Case number one – the milk might have expired or gone bad already, even the label says not. Case number two – the milk might be fake, for example, it was made of starches rather than a cow's fresh milk. Or edible coloring agents may have been added to make it appear white. Case number three – perhaps the worst of all – the milk might be poisonous. The manufacturer might have put melamine in it to make it appear to contain more protein. How do I know the glass of milk I'm holding doesn't involve any of the situations? How do I know my food is safe?

冯欣：我们首先跟严卫星聊了聊，他是国家食品安全风险评估中心的秘书长，也是全国政协委员。

Feng Xin: First, we talked to Yan Weixing, secretary-general of the safety committee under the China Food Safety Risk Assessment Center. Yan is also a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference.

冯欣：严委员，首先我想问您一个比较基本的问题，您觉得什么样的食品才是安全的食品？您对安全食品的定义是什么？

Feng Xin: Mr Yan, I'd like to start with a basic question: What's your definition of safe food?

严卫星：我想用我们老百姓比较容易理解的话来说，对我们的健康不带来危害的食品，那它就是安全的食品。

Yan Weixing: If we use plain words that ordinary people can understand, food that doesn't bring harm to our health is safe food.

冯欣：怎么去界定什么样的食品是安全的？什么样的食品是不安全的？

Feng Xin: How do you distinguish between safe and unsafe food?

严卫星：现在国家有一系列的规定，国家的标准，那么标准是一个评判的手段，当然我想标准也不是唯一的评判手段。我们《食品安全法》有一系列的要求，要求它的原料、生产过程。把这些综合起来，这样它才是一个合格的、安全的食品。当然食品安全标准的制定是在正常生产状态下，要跟非法添加这些犯罪的行为分一分。

Yan Weixing: China now has a series of regulations, or national standards. That's one way to decide. However, I don't think it's the only way. Our Food Safety Law has a series of requirements, regulating the raw material and production processes of food. Only when integrating all these items can we decide whether a type of food is safe. Of course, food safety standards are made according to normal production conditions. We need to separate these from criminal behaviors.

冯欣：这个是什么意思能不能解释一下？

Feng Xin: What do you mean?

严卫星：你想，违法犯罪的问题，跟标准没有关系。你制定再严的标准，他要犯罪他还是犯罪的。总体来说我们国家食品安全是有保障的，而且我们在还不断地向好的方面发展。那么现在大家可能看到的比较多的问题，是不断出现的一些没有良心的违法犯罪的行为，添加了些非食用物质。比方说我们2008年三聚氰胺的问题，它本来就不是一个食品中应该有的东西，他人为地为了追求他的目的添加了。但是如果把这些行为跟我们食品所固有的那些安全问题，把它稍微分离一下以后，大家可能就不会觉得我们的食品安全会那么一团糟。

Yan Weixing: Well, look at it in terms of crimes; they have nothing to do with standards. No matter how harsh you make the regulations, if somebody wants to commit a crime he will still do it. Generally speaking, our food safety is guaranteed, and we are still heading toward a better future. What people see most often nowadays are constant crimes committed without any conscience, like adding non-edible substances to food. For example, milk was tainted with melamine in 2008. It wasn't supposed to be a substance in food at all but was purposefully added to milk. If we separate these crimes from some inherent food safety issues, people would probably not think our food safety is that bad.

冯欣：您觉得我们现在公众对于食品安全存在什么样的误解？

Feng Xin: How do you think the public misunderstands food safety issues?

严卫星：我现在这么讲吧，我们先把大家所认为的食品安全问题，分析一下原因。第一块，我觉得是在正常生产状态下，出现的一些不可避免的、非人为的一些污染物进入到食物链中来。我们环境中有那么多污染物，它必然要进入食物链。我们在生产过程中要使用农药，我们在养殖过程中要使用兽药，我们不能不使用。刚刚说了，我们的植物不用农药，产量就保证不了。产量保证不了，我们基本上吃饭问题，饱的问题都解决不了，量的问题都解决不了。

Yan Weixing: Let me put it this way. Let's look at some factors which can contribute to food safety hazards. I think the first category of factors occurs during normal production processes, when some contaminants enter our food chain. There are so many contaminants in our environment, and they will inevitably enter the food chain. We use pesticide when growing plants. We use veterinary drugs when feeding animals. We have to use them. If we don't, we won't be able to guarantee our volume of production, and therefore we won't even have enough food to eat.

冯欣：那这是一个矛盾。

Feng Xin: That's a dilemma.

严卫星：是一个矛盾。所以一方面我们研究一些低毒的农药，残留少的、对健康影响小的农药，在研究上要加强这方面的工作。那么在使用上，合理规范的使用，我们建立规范使用农药的操作规程。再往下我们制定了一个相应的残留限量标准，只要在这个标准之内，它对健康就不带来问题。通过多种手段把这些非人为的、我们必须要用的这些污染物把它控制住。

Yan Weixing: It is a dilemma. So on the one hand, we research and develop some harmless pesticides, which have little influence on human health. We need to work on that. On the other hand, we need to train farmers to follow some operational standards when using pesticides. We also made national standards for pesticide residue. As long as it's within the range, it won't affect human health. By taking multiple approaches, we control these contaminants.

严卫星：第二块，我们再讲——我们分析原因嘛，给食品带来风险的原因。第二块呢，我们说一些假冒伪劣、以次充好（的食品），那么假冒伪劣以次充好这里面，有的时候它可能会存在安全问题，有的时候它可能不会存在安全问题。比方说用淀粉来冒充奶粉，当淀粉冒充奶粉给成年人吃的时候，可能它不会带来太大的风险，因为我们食物很多样。当冒充奶粉给孩子吃的时候，它可能就带来了安全问题，它营养不够啊。当然这个淀粉是食用的淀粉，就是大米磨的或者用红薯做的淀粉。

Yan Weixing: Now let's talk about the second category of factors, which bring risks to food. They are forged, or fake, food products. Among these, some may cause safety problems. Some may not. For example, a manufacturer uses starches to forge milk powder. When such milk powder is consumed by adults it might not cause a big problem, because adults eat a variety of food. However, when the milk powder is consumed by babies it might cause a big problem, because it doesn't contain enough nutrition. Of course, this is when we assume the starches are made of rice or sweet potatoes.

严卫星：我们再举一个例子，有些面条不用鸡蛋，用我们允许使用的色素，弄得黄黄的颜色冒充鸡蛋挂面，它可能不会有安全问题。当它添加了一些东西，是非食用物质的时候，那肯定给安全就带来问题。他不使用食用的色素，使用工业的色素，它肯定带来安全问题。

Yan Weixing: Let me give you another example. Some manufacturers use food coloring agents rather than eggs to make dried noodles appear yellow. This might not cause a safety problem. But if the manufacturers add substances that are not edible they will definitely bring a safety hazard, because the substances are not food coloring agents but industrial coloring agents, which are definitely harmful to food safety.

严卫星：第三块，就刚刚我们讨论的非食用物质的添加，瘦肉精的问题，三聚氰胺的问题，还有工业染料的问题等等，不断的一系列出现这些问题。

Yan Weixing: Let's talk about the third category of factors - non-edible substances, like "lean meat powder", melamine, as well as industrial dye, that we often see.

冯欣：在理清了几种我们可能遇到的食品风险以后，再回到这个问题：我们的食品到底有多安全？

Feng Xin: After sorting out the types of food risks or danger we might face, how safe is our food after all?

冯欣：2011年，清华大学和《小康》杂志联合做了一个调查，《小康》是中共机关刊物《求是》下的一本杂志。这个调查在全国所有省份进行，访问了超过1000位受访者。调查显示超过六成的受访者认为中国的食品安全形势严峻，八成以上的受访者担心食品安全问题。那么这些看法是否反映了真实的情况呢？

Feng Xin: In 2011, Tsinghua University and Insight China, a magazine under the Chinese Communist Party publication Qiushi, conducted a survey with more than 1,000 respondents from all Chinese provinces. The results show that more than 60% of respondents think the food safety situation in China is “very severe”. More than 80% worry about food safety. Do these perceptions reflect the real situation?

冯欣：我们在演播室拨打了云无心的电话，他写过几本关于食品安全的著作，现在正在美国普渡大学食品工程系攻读博士研究生。

Feng Xin: We called Yunwuxin from our studio. He is an author who has written several books on food safety and is currently doing his PhD studies in Food Engineering at Purdue University in the United States.

冯欣：云无心先生，超过六成的受访者认为我们国家食品安全形势严峻，八成的人对当下的食品没有安全感，您认为原因是什么？

Feng Xin: Mr Yunwuxin, more than 60 percent of respondents think the food safety situation in China is very severe. More than 80 percent worry about food safety. What do you think is the reason?

云无心：我觉得这里边有一个很关键的（词），“安全感”。最关键的是说消费者缺乏安全感，其实这个安全感跟食物的安全状况还不是直接相关的。当然中国食品新闻太多，层出不穷，这个确实有现实国情的原因。因为像国外的食品繁类相对中国来说要容易得多，因为它（们）的产业化非常成熟，都是有一个大企业就占据了整个市场的绝大部分。只要政府抓住那几个企业，这个市场上的食物基本上就不会出大问题。而中国是正好相反，中国百分之八十以上的食品是来自于非常小的作坊或者企业，这些企业政府监管起来是非常困难的。这是一个现实的原因。

Yunwuxin: I think a key phrase here is "sense of security." Consumers lack a sense of security. In fact, such a sense isn't directly related to the food safety situation. Obviously, China has so many news reports about food. This is due to China's circumstances. Other countries have significantly less categories of food than China, because their degree of industrialization is very high. Usually a huge corporation takes over a bulk of the market. The government only needs to monitor the few big corporations. The food in this particular market usually won't have any big problems. China is the opposite case. More than 80 percent of food supply comes from small workshops or enterprises. It's extremely difficult for the government to supervise all of them. This is one reason.

云无心：另外一个原因是，现在中国的媒体对于食品新闻的报道缺乏理性，非常非常不专业。我在去年年底写了《2011年中国食品新闻盘点》，经过仔细的分析，去年所有的著名的食品安全事故，我发现大多数让公众非常担心的食品安全事故都是媒体炒作的结果，它实际上根本就不是问题。

Yunwuxin: Another reason is that many Chinese media lack rationality and professionalism in their reporting on food safety news. I wrote an article at the end of last year, "An account of China's food safety news in 2011". Through my detailed analysis, I found many well-known food safety incidents – those that made the public very worried – are a result of the media's sensationalism. They are, in fact, not problems at all.

冯欣：那您能不能举个例子？

Feng Xin: Can you give us an example?

云无心：比如说去年的西瓜膨大剂、草莓膨大剂，这些报道完全背离了科学现实，就是说这些东西根本就没有害。即使是像去年年终蒙牛的黄曲霉超标事件，这个事件是一个非常明显的、确确实实是违反了国家标准、毒素超标的事件，要对它进行处理是完全合理的。但是超标的牛奶本身（的危害）并没有媒体所渲染的那么大。

Yunwuxin: For example, watermelons and strawberries were found to contain growth-accelerating chemicals last year. These reports completely departed from scientific truth. In fact, these chemicals are not harmful at all. Another example is the dairy company Mengniu, which added more aflatoxins in its milk than the required limit. This was a clear violation of the national standards. Any punishment would be reasonable. However, the milk itself was not as harmful as what the media described.

云无心：实际上正如中国农业大学食品学院罗云波院长说的，即使牛奶超标，它的致癌性也是非常非常弱的。我们要处理它、引起关注，是因为它违反了操作规程，违反了国家标准，而并不是说它有多大的致癌性，媒体绝大多数时候分不清这二者的区别。

Yunwuxin: Like Luo Yunbo said, who is the dean of College of Food Sciences at China Agricultural University, even though the chemical in the milk exceeded the national standard, its ability to cause cancer was extremely weak. We need to sanction the company because it violated production standards, not because its likelihood of causing cancer. But the media cannot distinguish the two questions most of the time.

冯欣：那媒体除了负面的影响以外，有正面的影响吗？

Feng Xin: Apart from negative influence, do the media exert any positive influence?

云无心：正面的影响就是说，促进了有关部门采取一些行动。

Yunwuxin: A positive influence would be that the media pushed some government agencies to take action.

冯欣：那我再回到刚才讲到的问题，公众对食品的安全感，这种感受。是我们过于恐慌呢，还是说我们现实的食品安全状况就是这么糟？

Feng Xin: Let me get back to what we just talked about: the public's sense of security, the feeling. Are we too scared, or is our food safety situation really that bad?

云无心：我觉得是这个恐慌被放大了。我们每个人都希望有绝对安全的食品，但这是不可能的。食品总是有风险的，所以一旦有一点风险，就会被媒体无限放大，公众就会产生非常大的恐慌。

Yunwuxin: I think the scare is exaggerated. We all want to have absolutely safe food, but this is impossible. Food always has risks. So once there is a tiny risk it will be exaggerated by the media, and the public will get very scared.

冯欣：我们刚才说了媒体，那我们现在来说说公众。《小康》杂志和清华大学的调查还显示，中国消费者最担心的五个问题包括：第一，蔬菜水果中农药残留超标；第二，食品中违规使用添加剂；第三，病死的牲畜肉；第四，添加有毒有害物质，比如三聚氰胺这样的；第五，是非食用油，比如地沟油、泔水油。您认为公众有理由担心这些问题吗？

Feng Xin: We just talked about the media. Let's talk about the public. According to the survey conducted by Insight China magazine and Tsinghua University, Chinese consumers are most worried about five food safety issues, including: first, pesticide residue; second, excessive use of food additives; third, meat from the carcass of a sick animal; fourth, non-edible substances like melamine; and fifth, non-cooking oil, like swill-cooked dirty oil. Do you think the public has a reason to worry about these problems?

云无心：对这些问题的担心是合理的，我们确实应该关注这些问题，而且这些问题应该由主管部门来监控。农药这个问题——实际上现在用的农药，毒性并没有大家想象的那么强，也不是说（食物）上边有农药，超标了一点，就能够有多大的危害。农药残留的安全标准是个执法标准，是说超过这个限度应该引起我们的注意，我们要去执法，要控制它，因为它都留了一个比较大的安全余量，并不是说一旦超过这个（限度），马上对你身体有多大危害。

Yunwuxin: Yes, it's reasonable to worry about these problems. We should pay attention to them, and supervision agencies should take care of these problems. In terms of pesticide– in fact, the pesticide we now use is not as poisonous as most people think. A little pesticide that exceeds the national standards will not do much harm. The pesticide residue standards are for law enforcement, meaning once the chemicals exceed the limit our attention should be drawn and supervision agencies need to control them. The standards usually leave a big safety allowance. They don't indicate that once chemicals exceed the limit they will harm you.

云无心：而食品添加剂的问题，实际上中国的食品添加剂有2400多种，其中真正容易滥用、容易超标使用的，也就那么几十种。而且这几十种很多即使超标了，考虑到你不可能说长期大量地吃这个食品，它的危害还是没有大家想象的那么大。据我所知，真正食品添加剂滥用产生危害的，就是那些非法使用亚硝酸盐来做腌肉、炸鸡。他用的实在太多了，没有控制，会产生一些中毒事件。其它的那些食品添加剂，即使说超标了，也不大可能让你的摄入量到了危害身体的地步。

Yunwuxin: About food additives– there are about 2,400 kinds of food additives in China, and only a few dozen of them are likely to be abused. Even if these few dozen are overused, since it'd be impossible for you to eat a particular type of food for a long time, the harm is still not as serious as people think. As far as I know, the additive that can really do harm is nitrite that is illegally used in smoked meat and fried chicken. Many producers use too much and cause food poisoning accidents. Other additives, even if they are overused, will not likely reach an amount that will cause you harm.

冯欣：两位专家都解释了可能导致公众恐慌的一些误解和错觉，那么食品安全确确实实存在的问题呢？我们采访了雷晓凌，她是全国人大代表，也是食品安全专业的教授。

Feng Xin: While both experts explained the misunderstanding or misconception that might have contributed to the public's health scare, what about the real food safety issues that do exist? We talked to Lei Xiaoling, a National People's Congress deputy and professor in food safety.

冯欣：您认为我们现在食品安全存在的最突出的问题是什么？

Feng Xin: What do you think is the most significant problem with our food safety?

雷晓凌：食品安全突出的问题我觉得——我也一直在想最突出问题是什么。因为其实我们现在从检测能力和力度来说，跟国外比并不差。我们很多需要检测的项目，基本上也都检测了。另外我们抽查的频率、样品量也不算少，我们的监管人员比别人还多。所以我觉得食品安全出现的问题可能还是在于我们有些时候惩罚力度不够。另外，我们的食品还是存在多头管理，可能这里存在一个责任不是很明确的问题。

Lei Xiaoling: I think the most significant problem– I've also been thinking about this question. In fact, our testing ability and enforcement isn't any less adequate than other countries. We test pretty much all the required items. The frequency of our inspection and sample size isn't small. We also have more supervision personnel than other countries. Therefore, I think the main problem, perhaps, lies in the fact that the punishment isn't severe enough. Also, there are multiple departments overseeing our food safety, so their responsibilities might not be very clear.

冯欣：我举个例子，比如说一盒牛奶，它从被生产出来到走上我们的餐桌，要经过哪些部门的监管，然后要经过哪些环节才能最后流通到我们的餐桌上？

Feng Xin: Take an example of a carton of milk. What supervision departments, or stages of supervision, does it have to go through from the moment it's produced until it arrives on our table?

雷晓凌：详细我也不敢说很清楚，但是最起码它在工厂出厂前是经过检验的，工厂本身是要检验的。另外就是质量监督部门，一般也会抽查、抽检。那在流通环节，工商管理部门应该也会检查，然后再到消费者手里。所以我们也是在呼吁，是不是可以整理、整合一些监管部门，包括检测部门，这样可能会更有效地提高食品的监管力度。

Lei Xiaoling: I can't tell for sure, but at least it should be tested before it goes out of the factory, meaning its manufacturer has to do the testing first. Then it's the quality inspection department, which usually makes sample tests. At the stage of sales, the industrial and commercial departments should also inspect it. It then arrives to the consumer. So now we've been pushing to integrate some supervision departments, including testing departments, so that we can improve efficiency in the supervision of food safety.

冯欣：雷晓凌代表提到政府对食品安全“分段管理”，这究竟是怎样的一个系统？如何运作？我们又如何能让我们食品更加安全？我们将在下一期节目解析这些问题。

Feng Xin: NPC deputy Lei Xiaoling mentioned the government divides the supervision of food safety into separate parts. What exactly is the system like? How does it work? And what can we do to make our food safer? In our next episode, we will look into these questions.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中国预算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中国的预算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大学生就业难，难在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 为什么我们经常听到毕业生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工难，难在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人单位的“招工难”？又是什么让求职者难以找到这些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中国有没有足够的养老钱？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我们到底能领多少钱？到什么年龄应该计划养老问题？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中国人是否应该晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力资源和社会保障部提出，未来会逐步将退休年龄推迟五年。这样做有什么深层的社会原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外国人：中国成为机会之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外国人日益增多，是否意味着中国成为机会的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中国反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探讨“家庭暴力”这个概念的本身和取证的困难。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中国反家庭暴力立法：难点

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中国》探讨中国反家庭暴力立法进程中长期存在的阻力和分歧。