Transcript·文字实录

在上一期节目中，我们提出：是什么让大家如此关注食品安全？我们试图首先理清大家经常遇到的三种食品风险。我们的嘉宾说道，一方面，公众对这些风险存在误解，从而经常产生对食品安全的恐慌。但另一方面，真正的食品安全问题也确实存在。一位嘉宾提到，政府对食品安全实行分段管理。这种体制到底是怎样的？如何运作？我们怎样做才能让我们的食品更加安全？

In our last episode, we asked what concerns people so much about China's food safety. We tried to look at the question by first sorting out three types of food risks or dangers we often face. Our guests said, while misunderstandings or misconceptions about these risks might often contribute to people's health scares, real food-safety issues also exist. One of the guests mentioned, the government divides the supervision of food safety into separate parts. What exactly is the system like? How does it work? And what can we do to make our food safer?

根据2009年2月通过的《食品安全法》，国务院成立了食品安全委员会来监督一系列部门。大致说来，农业部门监管农产品，包括动物饲料和杀虫剂。质量监督部门负责监管在工厂生产的食品。工商部门监管食品销售。食品药品管理部门监管餐饮业。卫生部门评估食品安全风险、制定食品安全标准和检验规范，这些需要卫生部门和其他相关部门协力完成。卫生部门还需要组织查处重大食品安全事故。同时，公安部门处理食品安全违法犯罪案件。据媒体报道，包括这五个部门一共有十几个政府部门监管中国的食品安全。

According to China's Food Safety Law, which was passed in February 2009, the State Council established the Food Safety Committee to oversee a chain of departments. Roughly speaking, the agricultural department supervises agricultural products, which include animal feed and pesticides. The quality supervision department is in charge of food production in factories. The industry and commerce department oversees food sales. The food and drug department is responsible for catering services. The health department assesses food-safety risks, formulates food-safety standards, as well as determines inspection requirements. It does this by working with the relevant departments mentioned before. The health department also organizes investigations into major food-safety accidents. At the same time, the public security department handles crimes related to food safety. According to media reports, including these five major departments, there are more than a dozen government agencies involved in China's food-safety supervision.

我们走访了北京的一个区级质检部门，希望借此让您大致了解这个庞大的监管链条中的一环是如何运转的。

We visited a district quality supervision department in Beijing, hoping to give you a glimpse into how just one part of this massive chain operates.

史长青告诉我们，他们对食品的质检包括三个部分：第一，对原料和辅料的检查，包括所有添加剂。

Shi Changqing showed us that supervision of food safety involves three parts: first, the inspection of raw and auxiliary material, including all the additives.

史长青：首先我们从标识标注上来看，一个是成分，都包括什么，还有它的功能，包括生产许可证。像我们现在看到的，就是一个生产许可证，这是生产许可的一个标识，说明这个食品添加剂是执行生产许可证的。

Shi Changqing: First of all, we check the label and packages to see what an additive is made of, what it is used for and its production permit. Like this, this is a production permit. This is the logo of the permit. It means the food additive has its legal permit.

第二，生产线和工作环境的检查。第三，成品的检查，包括外包装和有效期。大部分的检查过程包含检查一个公司的档案和记录，以及肉眼观察。只有到了第三部分，质检人员才会将抽查样品带回实验室，对该公司所公布的食品成分进行验证。每年质检部门会对所有注册的食品公司分别进行两次例行检查和抽样检查。

Second, the production line and working space. And third, the final products, including things like packages and expiration dates. Most of the inspection process involves checking the company's files and records, as well as naked-eye observation. Only in the third part will department officials take product samples back to the lab to verify the company's declared ingredients list. The quality supervision department does two such routine inspections and two spot checks a year with every registered food company.

冯欣：您今天跟我介绍了三个环节，从原料到生产过程，到成品。这三个环节一般比较容易出问题的是哪个环节？

Feng Xin: Today you explained three stages of your supervision to me –from raw material, to production and final products. Which stage is most likely to have a problem?

史长青：一般容易出问题的是在原料把关这方面，它的内在质量还需要第三方的检验来控制产品质量。

Shi Changqing: Generally speaking, raw material is the most vulnerable. That's why its inner-quality needs to be guaranteed by a third-party agency's examination.

史长青提到的第三方检验机构，是指政府审批认证的实验室。一家公司在由质检部门检验以前，必须先进行自检并委托一家第三方检验机构提供一份独立的检验报告。顺义区质检局有自己的检验所，它扮演着两个角色：第一是检测由质检执法人员送来的产品抽查样品，第二是接受各个公司的委托作为第三方机构提供质检报告。另一方面，食品公司必须将其使用的所有原料和添加剂在外包装上向监管部门和消费者明示。但这又有多大帮助呢？

The third-party examination agencies Shi mentioned are government-qualified labs. Before a company is inspected by the quality supervision department, it has to do its own lab tests and entrust a third-party examination agency to provide a separate report. The Shunyi District Quality Supervision Department has its own lab. The lab plays two roles: One is to test product samples the supervision staff collects from inspection; another is to receive companies' entrustment to provide quality reports as a third-party lab. Companies, on the other hand, have to declare all the ingredients and substances they use – not only to authorities but also to consumers – on their packages. But how helpful is such a practice?

冯欣：我们很多时候在买某种食品的时候都会看食品的包装，看它的配料是什么，都有些什么样的添加剂，但很大的一个问题是看不懂。

Feng Xin: When we buy food, we will often check its package to see what ingredients there are and what additives there are. But a big problem is we don't understand what the package says.

严卫星：我觉得首先大家要分开一下，食品添加剂跟非食用物质是两个完全不同的概念。你刚刚就讲了“非法添加剂”。因为这个容易搞混，老百姓经常搞混。所以我们也想逐步跟大家把这个概念捋一捋。食品添加剂是合法使用的，剩下的那些非食用的东西，我们叫非食用物质。

Yan Weixing: I think first of all we need to distinguish two terms: food additives and non-edible substances. They are completely different concepts. You just mentioned "illegal additives". It's easy to be confused (about them), and people often are. We also wanted to explain to the public about some basic concepts. Food additives are legal. Non-edible things added to food are called non-edible substances.

冯欣：那其实就是说，非食用物质根本就不会写在食品的背后。

Feng Xin: That is to say, non-edible substances will never be labeled on the package in the first place.

严卫星：禁止使用的，它不可能往食品中加，加了就得严厉打击它。有些偷偷摸摸加了他也不会告诉你的。过去奶粉加了三聚氰胺他能告诉你吗？他不会在奶粉里配料写上“我加了三聚氰胺”。

Yan Weixing: Of course not. They are forbidden. They cannot be put into food. If somebody does, he or she should be punished severely. Even if they added non-edible substances to food, they would not tell you. In the scandal of tainted milk powder, the manufacturer never specified melamine on its ingredient list.

冯欣：那比如说合法的食品添加剂，刚才我们讲到了过量使用也会造成安全的隐患。

Feng Xin: Then, what about legal food additives? Overuse of them will also pose a safety threat.

严卫星：国家有相应的标准规定食品添加剂的使用范围和使用量，都有严格的标准。只要按照标准来做的，那应该不会有问题。

Yan Weixing: China has relevant requirements and standards that specify the proper range and dosage of food additives. The standards are strict. As long as food is produced according to standards, there should be no problem.

冯欣：像我们老百姓怎么去判断这个呢？

Feng Xin: How can we, as ordinary people, identify this?

严卫星：我们现在标签上要求生产企业要标出来，要全部明示。后台政府还在加强管理、加强监督，包括在生产过程会严格监督。有的时候市场上也会抽查一些产品进行一些分析检测，多重手段来保障这些东西。

Yan Weixing: We require food producers to label all their ingredients on their packages. The government also keeps strengthening its role in supervising and regulating production processes. Sometimes spot checks are carried out for analysis and examination. So there are multiple means to ensure food safety.

冯欣：有没有一种可能性：生产的厂家明明添加了过量的食品添加剂——

Feng Xin: Is there a possibility that the the food producer has overdosed food additives but–

严卫星：这种现象存在，这也是我们要严厉打击的一个方面，叫滥用食品添加剂，滥用的概念就包括超范围使用和超量使用，这种现象是存在。为什么我们要公布一些滥用食品添加剂的名单呢？这几个名单里的这几种添加剂是在我们的经验里面发现比较容易滥用的。所以我们也广泛告知，让群众监督、让媒体监督，让监管部门也有个提示。我们发布这些东西只是对那些已知的东西，未知的东西你就很难弄了，未知的化学物质成千上万种。

Yan Weixing: Such cases do exist. That's what we need to seriously fight against. It's called abuse of food additives. This includes out-of-range usage and overdose. Such a phenomenon does exist. That's why we published blacklists of manufacturers that abuse food additives. In these lists, we identified that some additives are often likely to be overused from our past experiences. So we publish them to raise the media and public's awareness, as well as to remind supervision agencies. However, what we published is known material only. It is very difficult to identify unknown substances. There are tens of thousands of them.

冯欣：对于一些没有规定的内容，尤其是非食用物质，你们怎么检测出来呢？

Feng Xin: How do you test substances that are not specified by law, especially non-edible substances? How do you do that?

邹兰香：现在是这样的，如果有标准物质，具体物质，根据不同的国家方法，我们才能做（检测）。国家没方法的，我们这个机构也不做，因为没有一些法律依据。我们这机构必须是国家方法。

Zou Lanxiang: Now the situation is that only when there are standardized substances, definite substances, can we carry out tests by following standardized national procedures. When there are no national procedures, we cannot perform any tests, because there wouldn't be any legal basis. Our institution has to follow national procedures.

冯欣：什么叫做国家方法？

Feng Xin: What do you mean by national procedures?

邹兰香：国家已经公布的或者是认定的一些方法。我们检测还要经过认证、授权，才能出具报告。

Zou Lanxiang: They are authorized and publicized procedures. Our examination also needs to be accredited and authorized before we can release a report.

这就是说，质检部门只能检测那些已知的、已由法律鉴定的物质，未知的物质不能被检验出来。但当食品安全事件发生时，食品安全监管部门如何确认在生产流程中，是哪个环节出了问题呢？

That is to say, quality-inspection agencies can only test known substances that have already been identified and required by law. Unknown substances cannot be tested. But when an accident happens, how do food-safety enforcement agencies identify which part of the chain caused the problem?

史长青：一般现在的大型企业产品的追溯性比较强，从生产的批次就能查到产品是什么时候生产的。各个部门，包括初级农产品，包括生产的产品、市场，每个部门都有一个强大的应急机制。首先得掌握是因为什么出现了问题，是本身的产品带来的，还是由于添加剂带入的，或者是辅料带入的，马上可以查到的。这几个监管部门都会同时出动的，工商局会到市场去抽检产品，我们主要是到生产企业抽（查）产品马上检验，就能很快分析出产品出现问题的原因，马上召回有产品质量问题的产品。

Shi Changqing: For large food manufacturers, products are easily traced. We can find out when a product is produced by checking its batch number. Supervision departments cover raw agricultural material, food production and sales. Every department has a strong emergency response system. We will first figure out what caused the problem, whether it's the product itself, addictives or auxiliary material. We can immediately find that out. The supervision departments will act together. The industrial and commerce department will collect samples from the market. We will mainly collect samples from the production line and carry out a test. We can quickly find out what causes the problem and recall all the products.

冯欣：会有说不清楚的时候吗？

Feng Xin: Was there ever a case when you couldn't tell what went wrong?

史长青：没有，基本上都能查清。

Shi Changqing: No. We basically can figure out all the cases.

尽管食品安全的分段管理看似具体——尤其是对大企业而言，但食品安全链条的实际运行情况通常更加复杂。比如这个假设的例子，一头猪吃了被工业原料污染的饲料，之后被运往一家香肠加工厂做成香肠。在生产过程中，生产者在生肉中添加了非食用物质使香肠看上去更新鲜。之后，一个没有经营许可证的小贩烤了这些香肠，推着小车，沿街售卖。哪个部门应该负责？

While the division of food-safety supervision looks quite specific, especially for big food companies, the food-safety chain is often more complex. Here is a hypothetical example. A pig eats its feed that's been poisoned by industrial chemicals. When it goes to a sausage factory, the manufacturer adds some non-edible substance to the raw meat to make the product appear fresher. When an unlicensed seller barbeques some of these sausages and then sells them in a mobile food cart, which departments are responsible?

根据一项2011年的调查，该调查由清华大学和《小康》杂志联合发起——《小康》是中共机关刊物《求是》下的一本杂志。在来自全国各省的1000位受访者中，一半以上的人对中国目前的食品安全状况不满意。55%以上受访者认为政府对食品安全的监管力度不够。

According to a 2011 survey conducted by Tsinghua University and "Insight China", a magazine under the Chinese Communist Party publication "Qiushi", more than 50 percent of the 1,000 respondents from all Chinese provinces were not satisfied with China's current food safety. More than 55 percent believed the government's enforcement of food safety is not sufficient.

我们在演播室拨打了云无心的电话，他写过几本关于食品安全的著作，现在正在美国普渡大学食品工程系攻读博士研究生。

We called Yunwuxin from our studio. He is an author who has written several books on food safety and is currently doing his PhD studies in Food Engineering at Purdue University in the United States.

冯欣：云无心先生，您认为公众的看法是否反映了真实的情况？

Feng Xin: Mr Yunwuxin, do you think the public's perception reflects the real situation?

云无心：我觉得我们国家违反食品安全的成本还是太低。在美国，如果一个企业违反了食品标准，如果说它是恶意的，这个企业可能就活不过来了。而我们国家现在的问题是，如果你这个企业非常大，你出一点事情，只要没到人神共愤的地步，好像地方政府还要保护你，还要给你行个方便，或者这个企业通过各种社会关系、媒体关系，把这个事件摆平，就过去了。如果你是个小企业那就无所谓了，小企业受点罚，倒闭了，改头换面从头再来，现在的执法对他们形不成致命的打击。

Yunwuxin: I think the cost for violating food-safety law in China is too low. In the US, if a company violates food-production standards, if intentionally, the company is likely to die. But in China, if a company is big enough, when something goes wrong, as long as it's not an unspeakable crime, the local government usually protects it or lets it pass. Or the company will pull its strings with the media and all kinds of connections to put the matter off. If the company is small, then that's not to matter at all. It gets a little punishment and shut down, before it comes back with a brand new identity. So the law enforcement cannot deter them.

冯欣：那还有别的原因吗？

Feng Xin: Are there any other reasons?

云无心：其实核心的问题，首先是中国的食品监管部门太多，而且互相之间责权不清，总是有灰色地带。有好处的时候大家都要上去，有麻烦的时候大家都互相推诿，灰色地带的存在就提供了这样的机会。有不止一个部门可以管，但是都不管。当然还有一点，就是回到国情上来，我们有那么多的小企业。我曾经跟一位工商局的朋友聊过，他说他们现在一个工作人员要管辖区内的几百个企业。即使每天马不停蹄地工作，那么平均下来一天你就能走一个企业。如果你一天走五个企业，就意味着一年你最多也去不了一个企业几次，管理起来也是力不从心。这种错综复杂的局面，就造成了现在监管起来也很不容易。

Yunwuxin: The crux lies in the fact that there are too many supervision departments and their responsibilities are not clear. Gray areas always exist. When there is a cake, everybody wants a slice. When there is trouble, all shy away. The existence of gray areas provides such opportunities. There is more than one department that can supervise, but none of them do. Of course, China also has its circumstances. We have so many small companies. I once talked to a friend working in an industry and commerce department. He said every staff member in his bureau is responsible for a few hundred companies in their district. Even if he or she works around the clock, the officer can only inspect one company a day on average. If he or she inspects five companies a day, he or she can check a company no more than a few times a year. It is very difficult. All these complicated situations make the supervision difficult.

食品安全监管的链条常常庞大复杂，那有没有可能把各个监管部门协调起来？

While the food-safety chain is often massive and complex, is it possible to coordinate different supervision departments?

冯欣：这么多的部门怎么样才能合作起来？

Feng Xin: How can so many different departments be coordinated?

严卫星：政府建立了一个协调机制，由国务院食安办来负责综合协调，有问题把各部门召集在一起，共同来讨论、来协商，建立起无缝的衔接，国家又建立了这么一个协调的工作机制。

Yan Weixing: The government has established a coordination mechanism, which is the Food Safety Committee under the State Council. When there are problems, it calls together relevant departments for discussion and consultation in order to make a seamless connection. The government established such a mechanism.

冯欣：您刚刚说到这个词，“无缝的衔接”，衔接的可能性有多大？操作性有多大？

Feng Xin: You mentioned the word "seamless". How is that possible? How practical is that?

严卫星：这就需要我们进一步完善包括我们的监管体制，找到最适合中国的监管体制，大家都在实践中不断地探索、不断地摸索。

Yan Weixing: This requires us to further improve our coordination system, including our supervision system. We need to find out the most suitable supervision system for China. We have been constantly exploring solutions.

冯欣：在您看来，适合中国的管理方式是什么？

Feng Xin: In your opinion, what's the most suitable supervision system for China?

严卫星：现在分段管理的方式我们才刚刚建立起来，还需要摸索、探讨，看哪一种是最适合中国的管理的方式。大家也在讨论，在国际社会也有多部门管的，也有少数几个部门管的。分部门管理越多，它就存在衔接和缝隙的问题。部门少，它肯定就不存在协调的问题，但是部门少又存在部门少的问题，你的能力、力量等。

Yan Weixing: We just established the system where we divide the supervision into separate parts. We still need to experiment and explore to see what works best for China. We've also been discussing that there are multi-department supervision systems in the world and there are also systems with fewer departments. The more divisions there are, the more problems in coordination there are. If there are fewer supervision departments, there will be fewer problems like this, but new problems will arise, such as resources and capabilities, and so on.

冯欣：云无心先生，您觉得适合中国的、一个理想的食品监管模式应该是什么样的？

Feng Xin: Mr Yunwuxin, what's your idea of an ideal food-safety supervision model for China?

云无心：这个我思考过，我也跟一些业内人士交流过，结论是现在我们都提不出一个理想的方案。因为国外的那些方案也不大可能挪到中国，中国有中国的国情和现实。

Yunwuxin: I have thought about this question and also exchanged ideas with professionals. We concluded that we cannot think of an ideal model. We cannot copy other countries' supervision systems, because China has its unique circumstances.

冯欣：也有人说食品安全问题，我们国家现在存在的食品安全问题是现阶段经济发展必经的，西方国家已经经历过了。对这种观点您的看法是什么？

Some say the food-safety issues that China is facing now are inevitable given our current stage of economic development, while western countries have already gone through. What do you think?

云无心：我觉得也不是一点道理没有，但是我们不能把它作为一个借口，说因为我们国家的经济现状就是这样，所以它的存在就是合理的，我们就应该默认。不管它产生的原因是什么样的，我们都没有理由去被动地接受。有意义的事情是，问题在那儿，我们现在应该怎么办，怎么去解决它。

Yunwuxin: I think the opinion has its grounding, but we can't use that as an excuse and say, 'Because of our stage of economic development, anything that's happening is justifiable, and we should accept it'. No matter what caused the problems, we have no reason to passively accept them. What's meaningful is that we know where the problems lie and what we can do and how we should fix them.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中国预算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中国的预算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大学生就业难，难在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 为什么我们经常听到毕业生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工难，难在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人单位的“招工难”？又是什么让求职者难以找到这些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中国有没有足够的养老钱？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我们到底能领多少钱？到什么年龄应该计划养老问题？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中国人是否应该晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力资源和社会保障部提出，未来会逐步将退休年龄推迟五年。这样做有什么深层的社会原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外国人：中国成为机会之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外国人日益增多，是否意味着中国成为机会的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中国反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探讨“家庭暴力”这个概念的本身和取证的困难。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中国反家庭暴力立法：难点

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中国》探讨中国反家庭暴力立法进程中长期存在的阻力和分歧。